33 Comments
User's avatar
James Mead's avatar

An excellent read.

One hears about these data centers and the gloom and doom of uncertainty.

As they will never come close to me I don't know a lot about them. This was very informative

Thank you

Daniel Mark Zamoyski's avatar

For everyone wanting to find out more about Fractal quantum computing, which Jay Valentine describes as "a disruptive technology" in this video, I think that you will find this helpful (I did).

Obviously as this Fractal computing technology is a pretty technical subject, Valentine does not reveal any technical secrets. But as he has (pretty clearly) demonstrated that his technology actually works, and LARGE financial savings appear to have been confirmed, this would be a subject area to continue watching.

And especially if this technological tool can be implemented quickly and pervasively enough to restore trust and integrity to USA (and other countries' Elections, I would welcome it robustly. But what we also need, critically, are non-corrupted Election Commissions and staff !!

https://omega4america.com/fractal-reduces-io/

Kurt Wullenweber's avatar

Another issue not covered here is: Where does the water go after it is used? In one instance it is being used by farmers for irrigation after it is used to cool. This is a relevant point, but the realities of water usage are seldom discussed. The water, if NOT dumped into creeks, rivers and streams to be carried to lower elevations and dumped into the oceans, filters back down thru the cleansing ground and returns to the aquifer. This is our main water issue with development in Florida. It seems no one wants water standing in their yard for a few hours after our very common Florida Toad Stranglers, so they have dug millions of small water runoff systems to carry the water into the nearest creek, to the nearest river and out into either the Atlantic or Gulf of America. In the Gulf, yard fertilizers add to the fertilizer problems from ethanol production flowing down the Mississippi and creating algae bloom super colonies - forming dead zones and Red Tides.

The same water can also be used multiple times for the same cooling purpose. Misted water and other cooling water is not just allowed to run free around the billions of dollars of servers, it is being controlled flowing into and out of the buildings. I'm sure locales could demand recycling of at least a large percentage of that water. It can even be cooled by pumping it thru piping systems in wells down into the cool ground. The same system can be used for warming water in the winter months.

Frank's avatar

Opposition comes not just as water issues, but in the case of xAI in Memphis, unsubstantiated claims that air pollution from gas turbines is adversely affecting predominantly Black neighborhoods. Ironically, the opponents claim city and county governments have ignored their health, but these governments are headed by Blacks.

Richard Luthmann's avatar

Let’s stop being polite about this. When coordinated networks manufacture fear to block critical infrastructure, and when the funding trails run offshore, that’s foreign subversionβ€”plain and simple. The remedy isn’t another listening session. It’s financial sunlight and legal teeth. Trace the money. Choke the foreign financiers. Flip whoever needs flipping. And for those knowingly acting as unregistered foreign agents, prosecute under FARAβ€”or, yes, treason statutes where the facts fit. Nations don’t lose dominance in one dramatic collapse. They lose it by tolerating sabotage dressed up as civic concern. If America won’t defend its ability to build, it’s choosing decline.

Victoria Cruz's avatar

Thank you for this timely analysis. But I have some questions and reservations.

1. You point our the water-saving alternative of air cooling. What I have read is that air cooling is incredibly noisy and creates quality of life issues for those who live within earshot; not life-threatening like losing ample, clean drinking water, but still life-changing.

2. An acceptable plan relies heavily on the knowledge, cooperation and integrity of leadership, something found lacking in many of the small, rural communities which are the targets of many of these data center projects. Equally important is the participation and persistence of the community in negotiating and monitoring compliance with the guardrails and caps that are imposed. Will that type of participation exist or be allowed by leadership?

3. You also have not addressed the possibility of future obsolescence of the current technology if it is replaced by the next best thing (e.g. data centers in space). What will happen to these gigantic buildings and their (possibly nuclear) power supplies? Can farmland and its valuable topsoil be reclaimed? Who will pay for any of that?

I don't have the answers, but I'd like to have the discussion.

HardeeHo's avatar

Given history the questions have no current answers. But that is not a good reason to not build. Small locals are deluged by opponents and promoters. They do have much to consider and will study hard but will find answers.

Ruth H's avatar

Another analysis of a national argument with good points being made.

Mark Ende's avatar

Points are taken. However, in addition to farmland there is also grazing land, land for fruit trees and berries, and just plain open spaces suitable for hiking, recreation, timber, etc. as well as land for mining. This is no falsehood as you claim. I live in central NY where the incoming Micron chip fab just cut down 400 acres of trees, destroyed a wetland (although they are supposed to build a new one elsewhere) and displaced a rare breed of owl. I am no bleeding heart Sierra Clubber, but given public outrage about these data centers, even Elon Musk wants to build them in outer space.

c Anderson's avatar

A neighbor to the proposed Carlisle, Indiana Data Center Project is Eli Lilly’s Medicine Foundry Project in Lebanon, Indiana. The state is literally begging Lilly to build more and more facilities. https://www.wthr.com/article/news/health/eli-lilly-company-45-billion-research-manufacturing-facility-lebanon-indiana-leap-district/531-faa8fc3c-60ce-4d79-8234-58018b87c8d7 Funny thing is they have no problem with how much water the LEAP District would use. https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/citizens-energy-group-potentially-provide-25-gallons-water-per-day-lebanon-utilities-indiana/531-f2b9abb4-ac10-42c2-9e1a-5b6fb65a7c79

John Wygertz's avatar

Weaponization of fear is the leftist playbook, no matter what the issue. "What if?", their most potent slogan. This is another consequence of the collapse of competence in our elites, that they can't be trusted to make good decisions, no matter the evidence presented.

Jerrilyn Colangelo's avatar

I learned a lot from this. I'm passing to my kids and grandchildren. πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ‘πŸ»πŸ’ͺ🏻πŸ’ͺ🏻πŸ’ͺπŸ»πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡ΈπŸ‡ΊπŸ‡Έ

Mark Ende's avatar

I think you leave out an important perspective. In addition to the fractal point mentioned by Daniel, there is also the loss of farmland and rural landscapes caused by larger and larger data centers, which as Daniel points out, are really not necessary. Resistance to these behemoths is not just about water.

c Anderson's avatar

Not all land is farmable, meaning capable of producing a profit. That is another falsehood that needs to be corrected. There is nothing like equity when it comes to soil, or for that matter weather/climate. If you actually flew over the nation in the last few years, we have a lot of land not being used. Take for instance farming in Israel that is relatively a desert country compared to our nation, and you will understand it doesn’t take a lot of farmland to feed the US population and even export food to other countries. We just need to improve our agriculture technology. https://unpacked.media/the-top-12-ways-israel-is-feeding-the-world/

Timothy Andrew Staples/pop122's avatar

But the least expensive and easiest to use land tends to be that already used for farming. Couple that with the current (crony-)corporate land grab...

The U.S. is not Israel, and vis versa. There is much overlap in first-world, Western (if you will) society, technology, and culture, of course, but not all issues/solutions can be impoted/exported.

c Anderson's avatar

You conveniently overlook the point that prime farm land would not be used because it would be priced at a higher cost than less tillable land.

Timothy Andrew Staples/pop122's avatar

I completely disagree.

I overlook nothing, conveniently or not.

My point is exactly that you are 180Β° wrong:

The *least* expensive land for devolopment *is* the land *already* in use. Restriction on use of *virgin* property is part of what leads to *already* available farmland actually being cheaper.

c Anderson's avatar

Indiana is flat as a pancake. Not a lot of preparation to build a data center on flat terrain except putting in the electrical and water pipes. When you say β€œdeveloped” the only development occurring on farms would be creating ditches to control runoff. Not a lot of development there. Undeveloped land requires brush removal which is not much of an issue as trees in Indy are small, more like big brush. All in all, it is not likely productive agricultural land would end up as a data center. It would be different if they were building in the Pacific Northwest like the data center in The Dalles, Oregon. We have 200 ft trees and huge forests with hills and valleys. πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ

Timothy Andrew Staples/pop122's avatar

Thank you, c Anderson, and I was wrong: I had overlooked the ready availability in the Midwest of new non-farm land.

Again, thank you for the response.

On a related note, who owns these data centers? Are they public utility or private sector separate businesses? (I know the lines are blurry these days!)

Mark Ende's avatar

Also, Israel has less than 3% of our population and has mastered the salinization of seawater for irrigation to alleviate desert conditions. They also import a lot of fruits and vegetables.

c Anderson's avatar

Duh. You can’t extrapolate? Did you graduate from Portland, Oregon schools where there are no graduation requirements?

Mark Ende's avatar

Ignorant. Like all lefties, when you have nothing constructive to say you resort to ad hominem attacks. Google it if you don’t know what it means.

Daniel Mark Zamoyski's avatar

As always in your examinations, this analysis of the β€œData Center Placement Controversy” is pretty robust.

However, you have not made a single mention of what has become, or is becoming, the elephant in this particular Data Center room.

There is a quantum-computing company using what it calls β€œfractal” computing that it claims (with apparently LOTS of verifiable proof)

can (due to the eliminatin of input-output latency)

produce the same computing results as large, capital-intensive data centres

but also can do so in a few hours (as opposed to 2-3 weeks)

- at no more than 10% of the computing equipment cost -

and (most importantly) with zero requirement for these water-hungry and power-hungry data centres in the first place.

Thus, this Fractal technology saves the very high capital costs of producing these data centres at all, and with no land-grab required.

Now, if this all seems to be β€˜to good to be true’, anyone can check out their claims via case studies, videos and customer declarations on their websites, and Substack account, shown below.

And, btw, I have absolutely zero financial interests in this company or any businesses attached to it. I am just adding an additional (useful, imho) dimension to your article.

www.thefractalgovernment.com

www.thesustainablecomputinginitiative.com

FractalComputing.substack.com

Alan's avatar

These links are all pretty vague. They seem more aimed at questioning data centers rather than something specific about their technology.

Daniel Mark Zamoyski's avatar

Well, I have read many of their Substack articles over the last few months, and in those you WILL certainly find detailed explanations of their technology. These Substack articles also have a number of links to their technology demonstrations. If you look for these, you WILL find them.

Alan's avatar

The closest I found were regarding eBay Fraud detection, TSA No-fly List, and FEC databases. There was nothing specific. The landing page on Substack is all articles that lean towards making data centers scary.

The website The Fractal Government website is also very thin on detail about the company.

Daniel Mark Zamoyski's avatar

Thanks for this info; I will post some better examples on 26 Jan.

Dale Fridley's avatar

So, is your point that the potential future availability of fractal computing will give data center opponents another reason to oppose or delay proposals using currently proven technology?

Daniel Mark Zamoyski's avatar

I am only mentioning this (very significant, imho) factor because it has become, maybe only in the last 6 months or so, a "new" matter that is (or should be) part of the investigation and due-diligence behind the potential implementation of big capital projects like conventional data centers.

Now, I am not saying that this new factor "will" give opponents "another reason" to oppose/delay proposals. But for a more holistic approach to the discussions/research, I reckon that it should be recognized and included. And, of course, it does indeed pose a significant argument against the implementation of a conventional, big-capital data center.

Sh1rl3y's avatar

Thank you for the alternative perspective. Very helpful.